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<  From Pulp City HQ  ~  Imbalance in the force(s)...?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:28 pm
User avatarDefender of the NeighborhoodPosts: 130Location: the NetherlandsJoined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:21 pm
@BountyhunterQ

I agree completely with you, I really dislike the warcraft 2 approach in many miniature games (.. to explain a bit what I mean, warcraft 2 let you choose between 2 armies.. humans and orcs, but the only real difference is the look.)
I think a strong "faction" choice is determined as much by strengths as by weaknesses (therefore.. Im also not a fan of mercenaries ;))

however the list leonmallet wrote down and, in general when it comes to pulpcity, this element has nothing to do with it ;)
the "factions" will never be balanced in THAT way : heavy metal, coven, bloodwatch etc.
the things listed by leonmallet.. levels, alignments and hero/villians, are not factions and in fact the balance that is missing, is not a balance of everyone having everything.. the balance thats missing is the balance in assembling your groups.
for every lv2 you need a lv1 (rulewise.) so in releases, it makes sense to put this equal. there also should be an equal hero vs villains count, because in pulp city the amount of miniatures you have is predetermined.. and equal on each side (minus offcourse minions, but minions are more items than characters.)

lack of nature supremes limits people in building a themed force, but its not a matter of making sure everyone has everything.

this would be the case if leonmallet listed wich subfaction still need a flyer and a healer and a speedster for example ;)

but as said, pulpcity is a small company still and you cant just release all you like at once (besides, where's the fun in that ;))



in the conversations above I immediately notice a thing regarding "nature" .. when nature it seems the immediate tought is the elemental form of nature.
however in the three origins nature offcourse doesnt mean the supreme is aligned with mother nature or has any ties with earth-protecting ideologies. likewise, I dont think science always needs to have gadgets and weapons.

technically Id say, the exact same character often can be anything.
if born as a supreme (any xmen) its nature
if science made it into a supreme (hulk, spiderman) its science, even if the supreme has nothing to do with science.
mystery would pretty much encompass anything not fitting the above two, likely in cases when powers or the supreme themselves are not earthly (forgotten, necroplane etc.) or secret to anyone including the gamers (but maybe not the supreme itself.)

however, with current fluff that would have made even less nature supremes (stoner hawk, seabolt, father oak, solar all falling under mystery and all arc except chimp chi being science.) so flexibility with the origins theory is the better way to go, but not to be forgotten entirely (or we end up with all nature supremes having something to do with nature as a theme ;))


pointless rant over ;)
also mind you, these are just opinions of mine.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:54 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Far from a pointless rant Melvin. I think you nailed the points that I didn't: it is a game of two sides, and those two sides are represented by up to three origins, and so building your forces is (as you said very well) constrained by certain requirements, thus in having disproportionate numbers of models of different levels and/or origins for the two (three in some ways) sides means a potential disadvantage.

As I said in my first post this is nothing serious at this stage, as the game is still in its infancy, I just hoped to provoke healthy debate which we seem to be having. :D



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:12 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Following discussion in the C.O.R.E. thread; break-down of Supremes by allegiance (and including the upcoming November releases):

Heavy Metal:
- 6 models (2 L1; 3 L2; 1 L3)
- 0 mystery, 0 nature, 6 science

Blood Watch:
- 4 models (2 L1; 2 L2; 0 L3)
- 4 mystery, 0 nature, 0 science

A.R.C.
- 6 models (3 L1; 3 L2; 0 L3); all H/V
- 1 mystery, 1 nature, 4 science

Necroplane
- 2 models (1 L1; 0 L2; 1 L3)
- 2 mystery, 0 nature, 0 science
- bonus: of course other villains can be given the Necroplane allegiance through Dr. Tenebrous' resource

The Coven
- 3 models (2 L1; 1 L2; 0 L3)
- 2 mystery, 0 nature, 1 science

The Forgotten
- 2 models (0 L1; 2 L2;0 L3)
-2 mystery, 0 nature, 0 science
- bonus: of course other villains can be given the Forgotten allegiance through Dr. Tenebrous' resource


Unaligned Heroes
- 6 models (1 L1; 4 L2; 1 L3)
- 2 mystery, 3 nature, 1 science

Unaligned Hero/Villains
- 2 models (1 L1; 1 L2; 0 L3)
- 0 mystery, 2 nature, 0 science

Unaligned Villains
- 7 models (3 L1; 3 L2; 1 L3)
- 0 mystery, 2 nature, 5 science


First impressions (beyond the obvious point that this data changes with each wave of releases), is that:
1 - I was surprised at how many supremes we now have (I would have guessed at 30, not at nearly 40)
2 - If had to guess, I honestly would have thought there were more allegiances present already; we currently have 6 (2 Hero, 3 Villain, 1 Hero/Villain).
3 - In some ways although Heavy Metal 'feels' like the best supported team thus far, but arguably ARC is the most rounded in terms of levels and origin variation.


Last edited by pulpcitizen on Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:39 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
So looking at the data, Hero players have the mono-allegiance advantage (since ARC can be played Hero/Villain, and since Dr. Tenebrous' ability can't kick in to compensate, until we see another 4 levels of Necroplane), in games up to EL 7.

For players who like more focused teams they will likely have both advantages and disadvantages in doing so - for example the mono-origin of Heavy Metal (thus far, and likely to continue?) means that it can be played upon (to a limited degree only) by Nature supremes when it comes to tied opposed rolls, and through any available technophobes. But then the mono-Heavy Metal force gets at least two types of buff when an EL 12 force becomes possible (through Dr Mercury and C.O.R.E. of course).

So what does this kind of example mean? Well as the printed rule-book approaches so does hopefully exposure for the game. In turn I hope that such exposure increases the player base. In turn as new players are drawn in they will probably focus their collecting initially, rather than buying every single available model (or even every Hero, Villain or Hero/Villain to begin with). So what will people be drawn to? On that it is hard to speculate, but my gut feeling is that many will follow the models they find the coolest, but in doing so may try to focus on teams built around those models. It is purely speculation, but if we see any kind of upswing in playing/player-base, I wonder if it will be reflected in the popularity of the allegiances with most breadth? In other words as the game grows will we see the emergence of a true 'meta-game' for Pulp City (to be honest I think we may, but that Dr. tenebrous will be the linch-pin of this happening...).

The range is too small to be focused at this time - Morf et al are doing everything right by creating a broad model range across a number of sub-factions at this time, as they build an exciting range of models both physically and in rules/game concept. I just wonder if an artifact of that could be seen when we watch the game grow in its third phase (I regard the early adopters as phase 1; those like me who returned as it had begun to grow as phase two players; and those who may come in as the game hopefully grows after a rulebook is out there for review, to be seen in stores etc, as phase three), that the popularity of individual models is affected by factors other than the model quality/desirablity on an individual basis (a whole other topic! :D )?



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:06 pm
User avatarHeraldPosts: 725Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:25 pm
what about making the list a sticky that would stay up the page and discuss the balance in another thread?



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Dr Red 26%
Dr Mercury 100%
Seabolt 12%
Dr Tenebrous 100%
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Pulp City collection (84,21% painted):
32* Supremes out of 38**
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:20 pm
User avatarImmortalPosts: 1161Location: Montreal, CanadaJoined: Tue May 12, 2009 4:23 am
I missed this thread up until today, but I have to say I find it especially fascinating.

It's been interesting to see how the game has evolved with the addition of new models and the numbers in this thread have bee especially interesting.

My question now though, is how are we going to see Teams develop?

I mean, the coven and ARC have some variety, even if it's a little biased so far, but what about the more specialized teams? Despite their fluff, as seen so far, are we going to see any non science Heavy Metal models or non mystery Blood Watch models?

While fluffwise, I would guess not, but from a balance point of view, if one wanted to go full faction, it would be interesting to have one or two differently powered options.

Anyway, just a thought. I'm looking forward to seeing the numbers in this thread change over time. :)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:25 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
cardboardvampire wrote:
I missed this thread up until today, but I have to say I find it especially fascinating.

It's been interesting to see how the game has evolved with the addition of new models and the numbers in this thread have bee especially interesting.

My question now though, is how are we going to see Teams develop?

I mean, the coven and ARC have some variety, even if it's a little biased so far, but what about the more specialized teams? Despite their fluff, as seen so far, are we going to see any non science Heavy Metal models or non mystery Blood Watch models?


While fluffwise, I would guess not, but from a balance point of view, if one wanted to go full faction, it would be interesting to have one or two differently powered options.

Anyway, just a thought. I'm looking forward to seeing the numbers in this thread change over time. :)


Regarding the specialisation aspect, that is where I see Dr. Tenbrous as having a big advantage with his resource ability, bringing in massive options for variety in time.



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:34 pm
User avatarHeraldPosts: 55Location: Bordeaux (France)Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 9:55 pm
You made a mistake : there are 2 Forgotten, Hellsmith and Boreas. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:36 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
La Fureur wrote:
You made a mistake : there are 2 Forgotten, Hellsmith and Boreas. :wink:


Not on my Hellsmith card...
:?

:wink:

One for the card errata thread, methinks.


EDIT: list amended! Of course that invites further discussion about Villain team Mystery bias... :P



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:59 am
User avatarDefender of the NeighborhoodPosts: 130Location: the NetherlandsJoined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:21 pm
I dont think everything should be extremely balanced in that way (that way being equal origins etc.) big mistake you often see being done ever since chess.

balance doest mean we're all equal.. balance means that if guy A can kick anyone's ass guy B makes sure he takes some long range arms along.. if guy A doesnt stand a change at guy Bs long range arms, guy A invites guy C to come along who can teleport guy A closer to guy B, in reaction guy B takes someone along to survive guy As beating, while guy B is getting away from the action, takes out guy A while guy D takes out uy C

thats balance ;) evolution does it the same way.... ground predators get stronger jaws.. ground prey get wings or less excitingly, stronger skin...


I think Bloodwatch should remain the ultimate Mystery heroes group
and Heavy metal the ultimate Science heroes group
and there should be an ultimate Nature heroes group too!!
it so fits heroes to not think outside of the box ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:58 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Melvin wrote:
I dont think everything should be extremely balanced in that way (that way being equal origins etc.) big mistake you often see being done ever since chess.

balance doest mean we're all equal.. balance means that if guy A can kick anyone's ass guy B makes sure he takes some long range arms along.. if guy A doesnt stand a change at guy Bs long range arms, guy A invites guy C to come along who can teleport guy A closer to guy B, in reaction guy B takes someone along to survive guy As beating, while guy B is getting away from the action, takes out guy A while guy D takes out uy C

thats balance ;) evolution does it the same way.... ground predators get stronger jaws.. ground prey get wings or less excitingly, stronger skin...


I think Bloodwatch should remain the ultimate Mystery heroes group
and Heavy metal the ultimate Science heroes group
and there should be an ultimate Nature heroes group too!!
it so fits heroes to not think outside of the box ;)


I wholeheartedly concur, Melvin. I am not calling for equal balance across all teams, for basically if anyone wanted that then the game should only have one team, available in two colours so to speak (like chess).

I suppose I am thinking a little more about how the game may develop long term. Some games get mired in 'power creep' as factions are pretty rigidly in place. Pulp City has the advantage of taking the approach that theming a team gives bonuses to play off, rather than offering rigid selction (beyond Hero and Villain tags of course).

The origin themed teams notion seems to be the direction we are seeing to an extent, although a Nature team seems unlikley to me at this time. We have also seen that three teams are Mystery-focused (thus far), two are science heavy, so a Nature team would be cool (and heroes probably have a slightly greater need).

You are right about balance - basically so long as all supremes of a given level are roughly equally effective at what they do, then the game is balanced as long as factors of survivability are also generally balanced. Balance is a strange concept in any game (like a tabletop wargame) where so many variables are in efefct (including human error on the part of players!).

In talking about imbalance originally I wasn't thinking of game balance in playing terms purely, but rather in more general terms across the range and the little effects that could arise as a result.



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:18 pm
User avatarDefender of the NeighborhoodPosts: 130Location: the NetherlandsJoined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:21 pm
mind you that with a nature team I dont mean treehuggers ;)

xmen, xforce, gen13 (?), generation x .. all nature teams. their supreme origin is nature, as they are born with powers instead of having science or mysterious source being responsible for it.

so I think an all nature heroes team is not only very fitting/possible.. its also a bit of a missing spot in pulp city currently.
in my mind this team is still called "the academy" :) and at least harrier should be somewhat tied to it.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:22 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Melvin wrote:
mind you that with a nature team I dont mean treehuggers ;)

xmen, xforce, gen13 (?), generation x .. all nature teams. their supreme origin is nature, as they are born with powers instead of having science or mysterious source being responsible for it.

so I think an all nature heroes team is not only very fitting/possible.. its also a bit of a missing spot in pulp city currently.
in my mind this team is still called "the academy" :) and at least harrier should be somewhat tied to it.


'Studenst of the Academy' could be a cool SG 4 competition (if a little close to SG 3), maybe even allowing for Heroes and Hero/Villains...

I am with you on the nature of mutants (or at least mutates), since Harrier seems the template of in-born power being tied to Nature. That sais, a sense of how prevalent such types are in the Pulp City world would be cool.



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:35 pm
User avatarDefender of the NeighborhoodPosts: 130Location: the NetherlandsJoined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:21 pm
leonmallett wrote:
Melvin wrote:
mind you that with a nature team I dont mean treehuggers ;)

xmen, xforce, gen13 (?), generation x .. all nature teams. their supreme origin is nature, as they are born with powers instead of having science or mysterious source being responsible for it.

so I think an all nature heroes team is not only very fitting/possible.. its also a bit of a missing spot in pulp city currently.
in my mind this team is still called "the academy" :) and at least harrier should be somewhat tied to it.


'Studenst of the Academy' could be a cool SG 4 competition (if a little close to SG 3), maybe even allowing for Heroes and Hero/Villains...

I am with you on the nature of mutants (or at least mutates), since Harrier seems the template of in-born power being tied to Nature. That sais, a sense of how prevalent such types are in the Pulp City world would be cool.


I actually mistook SG3 for that theme ;)
hence I tried to reinvent spandex into biker leather and "the academy" as part of the fluff.

alternatively, but you responded before I could add it, I wanted to say I still see an option for a resourcecard based team, that uses excisting supremes as its members that is focused on the elemental side of nature.
some sort of Gaia's calling, where certain unaffiliated supremes join forces to protect nature.. sometimes at the cost of pulpcity itself. (so it can take a stand as either a heroes or a villains team.)

all incarnations of solar (with the lv3 incarnation being its potential lv3), the jaguar, Stoner hawk, Acorn, Father oak, seabolt, francis gator at least would hear and answer this call. fluffwise this is even mentioned sometime. (at least, seabolt, francis gator and stoner hawk fighting together.)
only would need 1 more lv1 member that answer this call to make it either a full lv 12 team with a lv3 member, or with 4 lv2 and lv1 members.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:21 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Melvin wrote:
leonmallett wrote:
Melvin wrote:
mind you that with a nature team I dont mean treehuggers ;)

xmen, xforce, gen13 (?), generation x .. all nature teams. their supreme origin is nature, as they are born with powers instead of having science or mysterious source being responsible for it.

so I think an all nature heroes team is not only very fitting/possible.. its also a bit of a missing spot in pulp city currently.
in my mind this team is still called "the academy" :) and at least harrier should be somewhat tied to it.


'Studenst of the Academy' could be a cool SG 4 competition (if a little close to SG 3), maybe even allowing for Heroes and Hero/Villains...

I am with you on the nature of mutants (or at least mutates), since Harrier seems the template of in-born power being tied to Nature. That sais, a sense of how prevalent such types are in the Pulp City world would be cool.


I actually mistook SG3 for that theme ;)
hence I tried to reinvent spandex into biker leather and "the academy" as part of the fluff.

alternatively, but you responded before I could add it, I wanted to say I still see an option for a resourcecard based team, that uses excisting supremes as its members that is focused on the elemental side of nature.
some sort of Gaia's calling, where certain unaffiliated supremes join forces to protect nature.. sometimes at the cost of pulpcity itself. (so it can take a stand as either a heroes or a villains team.)

all incarnations of solar (with the lv3 incarnation being its potential lv3), the jaguar, Stoner hawk, Acorn, Father oak, seabolt, francis gator at least would hear and answer this call. fluffwise this is even mentioned sometime. (at least, seabolt, francis gator and stoner hawk fighting together.)
only would need 1 more lv1 member that answer this call to make it either a full lv 12 team with a lv3 member, or with 4 lv2 and lv1 members.


The Nature's calling would need a supreme to hang it together wouldn't it? The resource card would be a very cool way to do it, but I feel that any such (hypothetical) resource would need to be 'exclusive' and preferably L2 since it over-rides a lot of other factors, possibly even Hero/Villain alignement. What if it rendered all affected to become Hero/Villain? Too out there as an idea?

I really, really like your concept Melvin about the resource-based allaince. Kudos.



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