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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:02 pm
User avatarHeroPosts: 257Location: Kensington, MD, USAJoined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:34 pm
My hesitation on classifying Marvel-style mutants as Nature is the writeup in the rulebook describing the Origins triad:

Quote:
Nature is stronger than Science. Multiple
cases of broken dams, villages swept by
avalanches or thunderstorms plunging cities in
darkness show that Science has a very limited
power over Nature.


and

Quote:
Mystery is stronger than Nature. The roots
of magic are in the Nature worshiping cults,
and the new generations of occult practitioners
harness the destructive powers of Nature with
mystical verses or demon granted powers.


which certainly doesn't seem similar to Prof. X's genetically gifted kids. Not to mention the recurring interstellar travel, space aliens, advanced technology, etc.



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:05 pm
User avatarHeroPosts: 257Location: Kensington, MD, USAJoined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:34 pm
And on an unrelated note, the Science origin is really strong right now, especially with the heroes, and the heavy representation by ARC and Heavy Metal. And Science has a hold over Mystery, which would have an angle over Nature, if it was, again, more strongly represented...

Of course, every new release means this theoretical balance can shift yet again, so I'm not really concerned about Heavy Metal domination or anything.



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:39 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Scorpio wrote:
My hesitation on classifying Marvel-style mutants as Nature is the writeup in the rulebook describing the Origins triad:

Quote:
Nature is stronger than Science. Multiple
cases of broken dams, villages swept by
avalanches or thunderstorms plunging cities in
darkness show that Science has a very limited
power over Nature.


and

Quote:
Mystery is stronger than Nature. The roots
of magic are in the Nature worshiping cults,
and the new generations of occult practitioners
harness the destructive powers of Nature with
mystical verses or demon granted powers.


which certainly doesn't seem similar to Prof. X's genetically gifted kids. Not to mention the recurring interstellar travel, space aliens, advanced technology, etc.


I suppose until we see more at-birth mutates/mutants, and how they are represented, then only Harrier pretty much remains as an example. :)

I think Melvin makes a solid point about representaion of Nature suprems - if they are all 'natural world' themed, then it may become the most limited origin from a creative standpoint.



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:54 am
User avatarDefender of the NeighborhoodPosts: 130Location: the NetherlandsJoined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:21 pm
scorpio I really get what you are saying by that quote, but there are specific reasons that that quote holds less technical value, and is (or rather.. can be) to be taken more symbolic.

first of all the science vs nature doesnt mention supremes or even humans at all... it just represents the natural versus the engineered by human hands... "marvelstyle" mutants (its not really marvel's concept is it ;)) are still nature's extreme answer to situations/problems in the form of sudden evolution, it still has more in common with avalanches, storms etc. than it has with science or mystery ;)

additionally, the same quote would pretty much limit mystery to cultist types only wich isnt really the case either.

that said, I think its pretty much a given nature isnt just the elemental side in pulp city, for starters, they are not called origins for nothing, second, harrier pretty much follows the mutant pattern (were guerilla represents nature from the *nature of the beast* type, even tough he actually is created trough science... Id think hulk might be nature too in pulpcity.)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:50 am
User avatarHeraldPosts: 725Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:25 pm
I'm not worried about the imbalance on a creative point of view, as it has been said, the balance can shift with every release, which I find pretty interesting, and quite close to what could happen in reality, with supremes arriving in town one after the other. I guess a faction would establish domination (these days heavy metal and ARC) until the others gather to contest it...



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:14 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 2139Location: Maine U.S.A.Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:52 am
I can answer some of these questions. So Morf has trouble with Nature Supremes. He told me this years ago. I think it's one of the reasons that Oak and Acorn made to the table. I think initially he wanted to avoid Nature = Mutants as that old chestnut has been kinda played out. That being said it's true we need some more Nature Supremes on both sides of the table.

I'm at the point where I'm campaigning to include mutants in the Nature origin. I think this will help even the imbalance and bring Nature in line with Science. We'll see how this goes. Look for some more subtle changes in the way Origins are defined in the new rules. This is one of the things I think need a bit more definition.

At any rate I'm testing a TON of new Supremes now. Lot more Science, some Mystery, and even a few more Nature supremes. So rest assured more REALLY cool stuff is in the works. Including the first two winners of SG2! These guys are really cool. If anyone is feeling adventurous give them a spin.



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:58 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
I think you can count both melvin and me into your mutant/mutate = Nature campaigning Beermonkey. <needs thumbs up emote here>

Fight the good fight. :P :lol:



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:18 am
User avatarDefender of the NeighborhoodPosts: 130Location: the NetherlandsJoined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:21 pm
its funny, because I previously assumed (he goes mad when he hears the word assumed from my mouth ;)) at least initially morf intended the origin system exactly as describing it below, partly because of harrier, and the fact its an origin system ;)

"he wanted to avoid Nature = Mutants as that old chestnut has been kinda played out."

well.. its kind of like having no scientist in science or rather, having no constructs/experiments in science, either way both are done to death in miniature gaming.. robots in scifi games like 40k and infinity... more obscure constructs as seen in every steampunk themed game. Im being a bit sarcastic, but Im actually really suprised too.. a superhero-themed miniatures game with individual characters in spit of generic one, the good thing about it is NOTHIN is done to death/played out.

mind you that I dont think nature = mutants is the good way to put it, just like it isnt science = scientists nor mystery = cultists/demons, they are not factions, nor themes.
they are origins, there are no other origins than those (even in reality.) its either nature (god or evolutionmade.. whatever drives you.) science ("man" made.) or mystery (basically.. everything else.)

the problem with limiting an origin is it means more has to fall in others, Im not talking about balance .. it just makes the origins system a pointless idea if 80% of the time its science vs mystery. it would be comparable to making an unique dice for a game.. and all you use the dice for is determining wich player goes first...

additionally it isnt necessarily a black and white thing.
solar is nature, since his power come from a mysterious artifact he could just as easily be nature or mystery, look at whats out there, and just do what feels right.
father oak too could either be mystery or nature, while it was the elemental nature giving father oak its powers his origin is pretty much comparable to mystery as well.
acorn and harrier are the only I think are undenyably nature.

making clear its not, or preventing limiting nature to be only about elemental nature supremes very early (in the book at least.) is significally important.
I dont mean that 33% of the supremes should end up being "mutants" but it would be quite nice to have the option to include them if great ideas pop up.
alternatively tough, nature should not ONLY equal mutants.
I think aliens can be nature as well... even more so than most humans actually.
a supreme that is an alien from a race that breaths fire.. uses no technology and because its part of its nature, there is nothing mysterious about it.. that too falls under the nature origin (but not the nature element.. wich doesnt exist anyway ;))

I think among the Grymm.. and among the Ulthar, try to not limit them all to one single origin... both can be either nature, science or mystery, depending on the origin of their powers... the same Id like to see done for at least necroplane .. tough maybe with less or no nature (undead are pretty much an abomination to the natural order of things.) necro GIs .. it may be wicked science, but it still is science that created them.
and the more I think about it, the more I like that heroes groups tend to organising.. finding people with commong origins.. heavy metal = science, bloodwatch=mystery and potential but necessary other = nature... not necessarily all xmen, but a place where you can have your xmen.. or your "jumper" movie kid in casual clothes that jumps trough portals or your local captain planet wannabe that indeed is born out of the earth or a wiccan girl that doesnt really use magic or superpowers but knows her way with herbs and poisons etc. or the japanese fox spirit kitsune represented as a superhero.. they all can have this nature origin.
as long as they are either heavily connected to, or originated from nature.

that way the Nature origin shouldnt give headaches because you are not limiting yourself, and keep origins as what they actually are supposed to be -> origins.
not only when creating supremes, but also with other rules, this way you keep the door open for interesting stuff, without damaging anything. the origins systems doesnt become more complex, it becomes much simpler in fact. because no complex explanation of what an origin is is needed, an origin then becomes exactly what it says it is.






now I have a serious question to ask, should I consider politics ? I rant alot, Im longwinded, always strongly voicing opinions to an extend of pointlessness... I think I could be running for president soon :mrgreen: lol




a more schematical (but useless) example would be, to see it this way, someone's individual origin, and the origin of its powers (neither being necessary singular.)
the individual origin isnt (always) when born, but rather when (re)born in its current incarnation.

good example.. dr red.
born as a normal orang otang (nature).. but this is not the birth of dr.red
either the accident (Mystery+science ) or scientific experiment (science) would be his individual origin, his powers lie in the realm of science.. a clear runner for science.

guerilla, sharing dr.red's origin (so either science, or mystery+science.) his powers come from man-made weapons (a weak science.) and his internal beast (nature)
either science or nature convinces here.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:57 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Some great points, well made there, Melvin.

I think to consider the origins beyond narrow definitions is the way forwrd, and your Guerilla example underscores that very well.



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:11 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Update for the forthcoming wave (Kitty Cheshire/Vector; Sanguine & Draku/Supreme Zed):

Supremes by level and side:
Heroes - 16 supremes
- level 1: 5
- level 2: 9
- level 3: 2

Villains - 16 supremes (NB - Sanguine counts for level 1 & 2*)
- level 1: 7
- level 2: 8
- level 3: 2

Hero/Villains - 10 supremes
- level 1: 6
- level 2: 4
- level 3: 0

Totals supremes:
- level 1: 18*
- level 2: 21*
- level 3: 4

42 supremes (*)


And for origins:
Heroes - 16 supremes
- Mystery: 6
- Nature: 3
- Science: 7

Villains - 16 supremes*
- Mystery: 8
- Nature: 2
- Science: 7

Hero/Villains - 10 supremes
- Mystery: 2
- Nature: 3
- Science: 5

Totals supremes:
- Mystery: 16
- Nature: 8
- Science: 19


Heavy Metal:
- 6 models (2 L1; 3 L2; 1 L3)
- 0 mystery, 0 nature, 6 science

Blood Watch:
- 4 models (2 L1; 2 L2; 0 L3)
- 4 mystery, 0 nature, 0 science

A.R.C.:
- 6 models (3 L1; 3 L2; 0 L3); all H/V
- 1 mystery, 1 nature, 4 science

Otherside:
- 1 model (1 L1; 2 L2;0 L3)
- 1 mystery, 0 nature, 0 science

Necroplane:
- 4* models (2 L1; 2 L2; 1 L3)*
- 4 mystery, 0 nature, 1 science*
- bonus: of course some Forgotten villains can be given the Necroplane allegiance through Dr. Tenebrous' resource

The Coven:
- 3 models (2 L1; 1 L2; 0 L3)
- 2 mystery, 0 nature, 1 science

The Forgotten:
- 2 models (0 L1; 2 L2;0 L3)
- 2 mystery, 0 nature, 0 science


Unaligned Heroes
- 6 models (1 L1; 4 L2; 1 L3)
- 2 mystery, 3 nature, 1 science

Unaligned Hero/Villains
- 3 models (2 L1; 1 L2; 0 L3)
- 0 mystery, 2 nature, 1 science

Unaligned Villains
- 7 models (3 L1; 3 L2; 1 L3)
- 0 mystery, 2 nature, 5 science


Utility models:
Freelancer: 1 Hero/Villain, 1 Villain
Greed: 1 Hero, 1 Villain
Merc: 2 Villains



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:50 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
For anyone who takes an interest in these things, there has been a dramatic shift in the balance of various factors (Levels, Origins). For those that snagged the 2+4 wave (13 Supremes), there were no Mystery Supremes at all - only Nature & Science.

Of the new 13 Supremes we have 8 Nature and 5 Science. 7 are Level 1 and 6 are Level 2.

And to the overall breakdown, since this can affect the meta-game:

Supremes by Faction and Level:
Heroes - 20 Supremes
- level 1: 8
- level 2: 10
- level 3: 2

Villains - 22 Supremes (NB - Sanguine counts for level 1 & 2*)
- level 1: 9*
- level 2: 11*
- level 3: 2

Hero/Villains - 14 Supremes
- level 1: 8
- level 2: 6
- level 3: 0

Totals Supremes:
- level 1: 25*
- level 2: 27*
- level 3: 4

56 Supremes (*)


And for origins:
Heroes - 20 Supremes
- Mystery: 6
- Nature: 4
- Science: 10

Villains - 22 Supremes*
- Mystery: 8*
- Nature: 6
- Science: 8*

Hero/Villains - 14 Supremes
- Mystery: 2
- Nature: 6
- Science: 6

Totals supremes:
- Mystery: 16*
- Nature: 16
- Science: 24*


Heavy Metal:
- 8 Supremes (3 L1; 4 L2; 1 L3)
- 0 mystery, 0 Nature, 8 Science

Blood Watch:
- 4 Supremes (2 L1; 2 L2; 0 L3)
- 4 Mystery, 0 Nature, 0 science

A.R.C.:
- 8 Supremes (4 L1; 4 L2; 0 L3); all H/V
- 1 Mystery, 1 Nature, 4 Science

Otherside:
- 1 Supremes (1 L1; 2 L2;0 L3)
- 1 Mystery, 0 nature, 0 Science

Necroplane:
- 4* Supremes (2 L1*; 2 L2*; 1 L3)
- 4 Mystery, 0 Nature, 1 Science*
- bonus: of course some Forgotten villains can be given the Necroplane allegiance through Dr. Tenebrous' resource

The Coven:
- 3 Supremes (2 L1; 1 L2; 0 L3)
- 2 Mystery, 0 Nature, 1 Science

The Forgotten:
- 2 Supremes (0 L1; 2 L2;0 L3)
- 2 Mystery, 0 Nature, 0 science

Ulthar
- 5 Supremes (2 L1; 3 L2; 0 L3)
- 0 Mystery, 4 Nature, 1 Science


Unaligned Heroes
- 8 Supremes (3 L1; 4 L2; 1 L3)
- 2 Mystery, 4 nature, 2 science

Unaligned Hero/Villains
- 5 Supremes (3 L1; 2 L2; 0 L3)
- 0 Mystery, 4 Nature, 1 science

Unaligned Villains
- 7 Supremes (3 L1; 3 L2; 1 L3)
- 0 Mystery, 2 Nature, 5 Science


Utility models:
Freelancer: 1 Hero/Villain, 1 Villain
Greed: 1 Hero, 1 Villain
Merc: 2 Villains


Last edited by pulpcitizen on Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:06 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
So what does this mean for the Pulp City meta-game? Well it was previously arguable that Nature had an advantage in terms of ubiquity of Science due to the edge of the Origins triad.

As the numbers start to even out among the three Origins and distribution of models/Supremes, that slight advantage should in fact diminish.

What that distribution does do however, is potentially characterize the two Factions. Heroes remain Science-heavy, while Villains veer more Nature and Science, but are more evenly spread among the three Origins. So if I were picking a Villain Team right now for play against a local set of gamers? Well I would choose to go with a decent array of Nature, and possibly all-Nature (since that will play on one of the new Agendas); thus on that criterion alone, an all-Ulthar force may look attractive being mainly Nature.

Of course at EL 12+, using L3 Supremes, the advantage is relative to the leading Supreme; Dr. Tenebrous and CO.R.E. largely dictate their builds, but Dead Eye and Mysterious Man have much more open builds of Teams and Origins available.

Of course all this is minor stuff; good strategy (Team & Resource selection, Plot & Agenda selection) and good tactics (good activations), coupled with the whims of the gods of dice are what decide games, not minor stuff like I point out here. It is interesting to me though, just to see the potential if nothing else.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:37 pm
User avatarHeroPosts: 257Location: Kensington, MD, USAJoined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:34 pm
leonmallett wrote:
So if I were picking a Villain Team right now for play against a local set of gamers? Well I would choose to go with a decent array of Nature, and possibly all-Nature (since that will play on one of the new Agendas); thus on that criterion alone, an all-Ulthar force may look attractive being mainly Nature..


Honestly, we now have enough different figs available that the metagame takes a different place in things. What figs the local group have will change from time to time, but those are the supers you'll face most often. But for example, I expected to see more Heavy Metal at the big dance at Gencon, and only really fought against one. Yes, the older figs will still see plenty of play, but variety is certainly becoming the spice of life.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:32 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 1536Location: SE KansasJoined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:14 am
Don't forget as well that the starters contain several of those models. New players, as more models are released, find themselves not buying the starters and picking up expansions instead. You can get a level 3 team for $20 right away...not the same bargain, but less money at once.

I wonder if that affects things that people will play?



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:11 am
MortalPosts: 34Location: Atlanta, GaJoined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:29 pm
I think another thing to keep in mind is that the origins mostly only affect ties in the rolls. As mentioned earlier, the tactics used will determine the outcome of the game a lot better than the actual die roll being a tie and relying on origin.

Another point: I think that because Super Heroes and Villains are something of a aesthetic preference, I can see people sticking with models/characters they like over actual full fledged forces of a certain type.

I prefer ranged with some up close action, and so will be running mostly Necroplane due to their decent :MND ranged combat, and back it up with a little bit of :STR and some mercs with some :ENG .

Currently, I don't believe that I purchased any Nature models, though I'm sure that will change. Can't wait to see new Necroplane stuff!



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