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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:56 am
User avatarHeroPosts: 174Location: Chicago, USAJoined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:27 pm
I'm working on a Plastic-man type Support Supreme and I want a way for it to tie up an opposing model without actually dealing damage, and this is what I have come up with... Id like your thoughts and opinions on the power:

Limb Wrap ( :STR vs :AGL ) AP2
If SUPREME NAME wins the Opposed roll in Base
To Base Combat (note that reach does not
Apply in this case, he must be in B2B) he deals no damage but
Entangles and holds his opponent. The opponent
Must win an opposed roll to activate. The Limb
Wrap remains until SUPREME NAME moves or makes
Any other action, or until the opponent wins an opposed
Roll and activates.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:05 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Couple of things:

1. What if the Opposed Roll to Activate is failed? Can another model Activate in place, or is that Activation chance lost?

2. What is the Opposed Roll to Activate for the target ? (this needs to be spelled out)?

3. It is worth considering the AP cost if it persists beyond a single round by default; if so then maybe consider adding an AP or 2.



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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:30 am
User avatarHeroPosts: 174Location: Chicago, USAJoined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:27 pm
1) My assumption is the same as a normal strike... if the initial opposed roll fails, the limb wrap fails.

2) Hmm. My initial thought was the same :STR vs :AGL roll that was used to make the initial attack... but considering your question, perhaps the entangled opponents :STR vs the Plastic Hero's :DEF to represent the Strength of the victim overcoming the attack?

3) That's a good point... I gave it a low AP cost because it did no damage, but didn't really consider that it could potentially tie up an opponent for many turns.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:41 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
LabApe wrote:
1) My assumption is the same as a normal strike... if the initial opposed roll fails, the limb wrap fails.

2) Hmm. My initial thought was the same :STR vs :AGL roll that was used to make the initial attack... but considering your question, perhaps the entangled opponents :STR vs the Plastic Hero's :DEF to represent the Strength of the victim overcoming the attack?

3) That's a good point... I gave it a low AP cost because it did no damage, but didn't really consider that it could potentially tie up an opponent for many turns.


1. I meant the target Opposed Roll to activate; if that fails, does that player get to Activate another model in its place or not? If so, this is more powerful.

2. Either can be well-argued, so going with the best narrative choice is probably ideal, but it is important that when constructing the Action, a mechanism such as this is spelled out. :)

3. I think of the 'law of unintended consequences' in cases like this: "what is the best/worst thing that could happen?"



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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:00 am
User avatarHeroPosts: 174Location: Chicago, USAJoined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:27 pm
Ahhh. I see what you were asking... Maybe I should make it read more like:

"Upon Activation the opponent Must win an opposed roll to use any actions."

Since that's closer to what I meant.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:01 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
LabApe wrote:
Ahhh. I see what you were asking... Maybe I should make it read more like:

"Upon Activation the opponent Must win an opposed roll to use any actions."

Since that's closer to what I meant.


In which case it is more powerful than it may on the surface appear; since not only does it potentially lock-down an opposing model, but your opponent has to risk not Activating at all and basically taking the chance they may 'skip' an Activation with that model if they do not succeed.



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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:14 am
User avatarHeroPosts: 174Location: Chicago, USAJoined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:27 pm
That is kinda what I was going for... other than the Universal "strike" this particular Supreme has no offensive powers per se... the ability to lock down an opponent is really his only weapon... and that does no damage. So the Opponent can choose to leave the model locked down, or gamble against breaking the hold... but you also have to remember that as long as the opponents model is locked down, so is this one... he cannot take any actions without releasing the hold.

His other powers relate to either movement, or providing cover for himself or his teammates.

These are the other abilities I am working on for him...

Stretch AP2
When Stretch is combines with a movement action,
SUPREME NAME may move up to an additional 4” over
Gaps, holes, or even up vertical surfaces.

Body Shield AP1
SUPREME NAME stretches his body into a large thin wall.
Until his next movement action, any models in cover
by this model benefit from Barricade.

Flatten AP1
SUPREME NAME can flatten his body into a sheet on the
Ground. Until his next movement action the model
Gains BLEND 2, even if he is not in base to base
With a scenery.

TEAM POWER Rubber Body:
Unless SUPREME NAME is acting as a Body Shield, he
Does not count as cover for Enemy models who
He may be blocking Line of Sight to.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:37 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
LabApe wrote:
That is kinda what I was going for... other than the Universal "strike" this particular Supreme has no offensive powers per se... the ability to lock down an opponent is really his only weapon... and that does no damage. So the Opponent can choose to leave the model locked down, or gamble against breaking the hold... but you also have to remember that as long as the opponents model is locked down, so is this one... he cannot take any actions without releasing the hold...


Then the issue becomes whether he is L1 or L2.

If he is an L1, then he can lock down various L2's presumably which is more effective than locking down L1's with and l2 if you see my point.



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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 12:21 pm
User avatarHeroPosts: 174Location: Chicago, USAJoined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:27 pm
I have him slated as a level 2. So that being the case, would making the power more expensive be a fair enough balance?

Because I envision it like this:

Supreme uses the power and traps enemy model. On it's activation enemy model makes its opposed roll: A couple things can happen:

1 It wins the opposed roll, (and deals damage per the rules for opposed rolls) and is free. Now it can spend its AP, that was basically a free strike on the supreme using the power, a danger of holding an enemy supreme.

2 It loses the opposed roll, and its activation is over... If so:

Next activation, 2 things can happen:

1 The supreme with the power can simply not activate and continue its hold, in which case we go back to the opposed roll situation above,

2 The Supreme activates and moves or attacks, releasing the hold.

Would the Possibility of a free strike against the Supreme using the power, coupled by the fact that it also ties that supreme up and prevents it from taking action if it wants to continue the hold be enough to balance out the possible loss of an activation by the opposing supreme?

Otherwise, I'm open to suggestions on how to make the power work better.

(What I'm trying to do, BTW, is convert a group I had built for the Supersystem rules, this guy could stretch and entangle as his two big powers)


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:03 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
LabApe wrote:
I have him slated as a level 2. So that being the case, would making the power more expensive be a fair enough balance?


I would say being a Level 2 brings it's own balance - since you lose out at least as much Activation most of the time as your opponent.

Quote:
Because I envision it like this:

Supreme uses the power and traps enemy model. On it's activation enemy model makes its opposed roll: A couple things can happen:

1 It wins the opposed roll, (and deals damage per the rules for opposed rolls) and is free. Now it can spend its AP, that was basically a free strike on the supreme using the power, a danger of holding an enemy supreme.


Free Strikes are usually only triggered by moving from Base to Base, so if your target simply wants to Activate to use a Combat Action or similar while in Base to Base, no Free Strikes would result.

Quote:
2 It loses the opposed roll, and its activation is over... If so:

Next activation, 2 things can happen:

1 The supreme with the power can simply not activate and continue its hold, in which case we go back to the opposed roll situation above,

2 The Supreme activates and moves or attacks, releasing the hold.


Okay don't forget nothing is in isolation - you could simply ignore your Stretching Supreme until you need to, thus keeping the lock-down, so definitely an advantage for the Stretching supreme player, so 2 AP would then seem okay.

Quote:
Would the Possibility of a free strike against the Supreme using the power, coupled by the fact that it also ties that supreme up and prevents it from taking action if it wants to continue the hold be enough to balance out the possible loss of an activation by the opposing supreme?


How are you envisaging the Free Strikes to be triggered? Because if you see that as something extra to the normal reasons, then it is worth considering how you want that to occur.


Quote:
Otherwise, I'm open to suggestions on how to make the power work better.

(What I'm trying to do, BTW, is convert a group I had built for the Supersystem rules, this guy could stretch and entangle as his two big powers)



In this instance I suggest following my friend Beermonkey's Golden Rule of design - keep it simple.

Do not introduce too many clauses and keep the effect and use clear.



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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:34 pm
User avatarHeroPosts: 174Location: Chicago, USAJoined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:27 pm
I recall reading in the rules that all opposed rolls, unless specified otherwise deal damage. Since I specify the Opposed roll as part of the Stretching supreme's power, the victim as it were does not pay AP to break the hold, if he breaks the hold, I envision that does damage per the rule I referenced above. Hence my treating it like a free strike.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 2:17 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
LabApe wrote:
I recall reading in the rules that all opposed rolls, unless specified otherwise deal damage. Since I specify the Opposed roll as part of the Stretching supreme's power, the victim as it were does not pay AP to break the hold, if he breaks the hold, I envision that does damage per the rule I referenced above. Hence my treating it like a free strike.


Just remember that free Strikes have their own rules (such as adding to the Opposed Roll with friendly models in base to base etc).

So it may be better to simply clarify that the Opposed Roll to break free does inflcit Damage if successful.



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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:21 pm
User avatarHeroPosts: 174Location: Chicago, USAJoined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:27 pm
Ok, cool.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:56 am
User avatarHeroPosts: 174Location: Chicago, USAJoined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:27 pm
Ok, how about:

Limb Wrap ( :STR vs :AGL ) AP2
If (SUPREME NAME) wins the Opposed roll in Base
To Base Combat (note that reach does not
Apply in this case, he must be in B2B) he deals no damage but
Entangles and holds his opponent. Entangled opponents may not perform any actions other than to STRIKE (SUPREME NAME.) Durring their activation The Entanglemet from LimbWrap remains until (SUPREME NAME) moves or makes any other action, or until the opponent damages (SUPREME NAME) with a strike.


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