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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 10:02 pm
User avatarHeraldPosts: 1461Location: Zen StudiosJoined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Like a lot of guys on here, I have some ideas but have difficulty "pointing" a potential Supreme out - any advice?



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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 1:16 am
User avatarHeroPosts: 263Location: Atlanta, GAJoined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:59 pm
Are you talking about their numerical stats, or what their abilities should cost?

In either instance, it may help to compare them against similar role Supremes of the same level.

For stats, compare their highest stats and stat total against similar Supremes. If they are about equal then you're probably OK on the numerical stats.


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 1:21 am
User avatarHeraldPosts: 1461Location: Zen StudiosJoined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Y'know - what makes a level 1 - 2 - 3 Supreme, how many AP an ability should cost - that sort of thing.

I know a lot can be gleaned from the cards - but I don't want to fall into the trap of things/supremes basically being the same, just named differently (if you get me).



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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 4:59 am
User avatarHeroPosts: 263Location: Atlanta, GAJoined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:59 pm
There's no need to copy preexisting abilities unless you want to, but they can still be used as guidelines of whether your powers are fairly costed or not.

For instance, say I'm designing a Level 2 blaster Supreme. Of course, he needs a ranged Energy vs. Agility action. I look around, and notice that most of them cost 2AP with a range of 6-8 being typical, and maybe have a small extra effect. Now I've got a baseline. If I stay around that level of power, then my action can cost 2AP. If I want to add extra range, side effects, etc... to it then I might need to charge 3AP.

Alternately, maybe I decide that he'll have one basic blast and a second expensive one with the bonus features. Or maybe give him a variable cost action where he can spend an extra AP to activate the additional range or side effect. One way lets him make two ranged attacks and probably results in a more powerful character. The other way conserves space for more abilities while keeping him to one blast per turn.

I don't have to use the exact stats or effects from other characters, just a general sense of how powerful their abilities are for the price.

Of course, you also need to have a concept for the character and their supporting abilities/traits go a long way to making one bruiser/blaster/etc.. different from another. Maybe my blaster guy can ricochet shots to hit a second target, while yours gets to teleport a short distance after damaging a target. Mine could be themed with a gun while yours fires lasers from his eyes. Mine depends on stealth to get into position for a shot and yours flies. By the time you add up all the differences, you've got two very distinct characters.

Ultimately, the best way to balance a model in any miniatures game is by playtesting. Formulas and rules of thumb are designed to get you fairly close, but they are not substitutes for actually trying the model out and seeing how it performs and whether you can find a way to break it.


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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 5:47 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 2139Location: Maine U.S.A.Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:52 am
This has been covered a few times elsewhere, but I don't know where off hand so I'll just repeat.

Level 1 are basically Human: stats around 3-4, maybe one at 5 (rare)

AP of 3 for human, up to 5 for very fast characters

Damage of 6 - 10

Level 2 are Supreme: Maybe one or two stats at 5 or 6, rest 3-4.

AP of 5 for slower characters up to 7 for fast models.

Damage of 12 - 16

Level 3 are Super Human: Most stats at 4, one or two at 7, maybe one stat at 8 or 9.

AP of 8 average

Damage of 16+


All Supremes have 4 Actions and a Team Power. One Action is ussually a buff or debuff power of some kind. Could be a self buff or a team buff. One power is situational. In otherwords a power that doesn't come into play often but is VERY powerful in the right situation. The other two powers are ussually attack powers of some kind. The staples of a character, blasts and special combat attacks etc...

The above stats should be modified by the skills and Team Power your character has. The more skills you have the lower your stats should be. Some skill are actually a hinderance and can give you more points, Instability for example. The team power is also a good balancer. A powerful Team Power can increase the value of a character, while some team power serve to hinder an otherwise powerful Supreme.

Other than that take dboeren's advice to heart. What he says is largely true. Balance what you have against what's out there then play with it. Trust me I know what I'm talking about. Not only did Father Oak and Acorn take a lot of work but I'm helping my room mate Minion perfect Riposte and Quarel (that's 4 Supreme Genisis characters in one house). In addition the two of us and my son are doing all the rules for the Ulthars. We've got a LOT of practice building Supremes. So post up what you've got I'm always happy to give people a hand with Supremes. Heck Minion churns out about 6 Supremes a week, and then I tweak all the rules. We're kinda like Mysterious Man that way...that makes Minion my Xenobi!



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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:31 am
User avatarHeraldPosts: 1461Location: Zen StudiosJoined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:43 pm
SUPERB!

I have his backstory, I can get to work now!



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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:14 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Beermonkey wrote:
This has been covered a few times elsewhere, but I don't know where off hand so I'll just repeat.

Level 1 are basically Human: stats around 3-4, maybe one at 5 (rare)

AP of 3 for human, up to 5 for very fast characters

Damage of 6 - 10

Level 2 are Supreme: Maybe one or two stats at 5 or 6, rest 3-4.

AP of 5 for slower characters up to 7 for fast models.

Damage of 12 - 16

Level 3 are Super Human: Most stats at 4, one or two at 7, maybe one stat at 8 or 9.

AP of 8 average

Damage of 16+


All Supremes have 4 Actions and a Team Power. One Action is ussually a buff or debuff power of some kind. Could be a self buff or a team buff. One power is situational. In otherwords a power that doesn't come into play often but is VERY powerful in the right situation. The other two powers are ussually attack powers of some kind. The staples of a character, blasts and special combat attacks etc...

The above stats should be modified by the skills and Team Power your character has. The more skills you have the lower your stats should be. Some skill are actually a hinderance and can give you more points, Instability for example. The team power is also a good balancer. A powerful Team Power can increase the value of a character, while some team power serve to hinder an otherwise powerful Supreme.

Other than that take dboeren's advice to heart. What he says is largely true. Balance what you have against what's out there then play with it. Trust me I know what I'm talking about. Not only did Father Oak and Acorn take a lot of work but I'm helping my room mate Minion perfect Riposte and Quarel (that's 4 Supreme Genisis characters in one house). In addition the two of us and my son are doing all the rules for the Ulthars. We've got a LOT of practice building Supremes. So post up what you've got I'm always happy to give people a hand with Supremes. Heck Minion churns out about 6 Supremes a week, and then I tweak all the rules. We're kinda like Mysterious Man that way...that makes Minion my Xenobi!


Nice discussion Beermonkey; I'll quote into the thread i started in the SG section.



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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 3:37 pm
User avatarHeraldPosts: 1461Location: Zen StudiosJoined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:43 pm
I have two in mind, one is a Level 3 (I think) Hero/Villain, one is a Level 1 Villain.



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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:36 am
User avatarHeroPosts: 263Location: Atlanta, GAJoined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:59 pm
Level 3s seem like they would be by far the hardest to get balanced right (not only for being more powerful, but because they are specifically designed to synergize with their team). I would suggest getting at least a few lower level Supremes under your belt first.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:41 am
User avatarHeraldPosts: 1461Location: Zen StudiosJoined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:43 pm
dboeren wrote:
Level 3s seem like they would be by far the hardest to get balanced right (not only for being more powerful, but because they are specifically designed to synergize with their team). I would suggest getting at least a few lower level Supremes under your belt first.

Oh I am, the Level 1 is "well under-way" now - calling "him" a Level 3 isn't really quite right - if both of "him" are present they are Level 2 . . . . .

I think I'm getting the hang of it, I've used the notes given to "reverse engineer" a couple of the existing Supremes.



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