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<  New Characters  ~  Efreet - to get you through the hard times!

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 3:10 pm
User avatarHeraldPosts: 1461Location: Zen StudiosJoined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Morf wrote:
Yes, funny enough Heroes only Villains may target him with ANY Actions when in the Malcolm form. He is a pretty potent sorcer on his own.

So what if a model is unaligned (as in useable in both hero and villain teams like Kitty Cheshire) - do they "count as" hero or villain depending on the team they are with - gaining the required restriction?



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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 9:46 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Doctor-Warlock wrote:
Morf wrote:
Yes, funny enough Heroes only Villains may target him with ANY Actions when in the Malcolm form. He is a pretty potent sorcer on his own.

So what if a model is unaligned (as in useable in both hero and villain teams like Kitty Cheshire) - do they "count as" hero or villain depending on the team they are with - gaining the required restriction?



Hero/Villains count as both; I guess the wording will favour one Faction, rather than also excluding the other, thus Hero/Villains will be able to target him.



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:40 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
I was correct in my previous post (I was too tired to check back on previous posts to quote these last night:

leonmallett wrote:
Morf wrote:
Yes, funny enough Heroes only Villains may target him with ANY Actions when in the Malcolm form. He is a pretty potent sorcer on his own.


So is that:
- 'Only Villains may target Malcolm' or
- 'Heroes may not target Malcolm'?

I ask because if the former then a hero/Villain becomes a very useful addition to a team facing Efreet, do they not?


Morf wrote:
It's the Villains only option:
"Dang, I ain't gonna let this punk fry my fury back with his magicks" says Guerilla to his ally Iron Train. Who is there to stop the huge guy with a minigun?


Hero/Villains always count as both Hero and Villain at the same time (future individual exceptions notwithstanding).

So a Hero team facing Efreet (eventually; it looks like he is way down the schedule...) may want to think seriously about having some Hero/Villains to target Malcolm (here I would think about Guerilla, Vector or any character with decent threat range).



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:06 pm
User avatarHeraldPosts: 1461Location: Zen StudiosJoined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:43 pm
BUT -if they always count as both Hero and Villain at the same time - then surely they are restricted by any Hero/Villain limitations too!



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:15 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Doctor-Warlock wrote:
BUT -if they always count as both Hero and Villain at the same time - then surely they are restricted by any Hero/Villain limitations too!


They are and will continue to be so; however the restrictions will usually only specify either hero(es) or Villain(s).

As an example, Ace of Wraiths is on a Hero team facing another Hero team. His enemies include Guerilla (Hero/Villain). Ace is using Helstromm to attack Guerilla. Even though he (Guerilla) is on a Hero Team, Guerilla is still also a Villain, so still suffers an additional point of damage.

Thus 'only Villains may target Malcolm' won't be written to include further Hero restrictions; instead it means a Hero player needs to think about including a Hero/Villain or two in order to exploit this option, or even taking along Gentleman (through Greed).

I am not aware of any restrictions that specify Hero/Villain.


Last edited by pulpcitizen on Thu May 20, 2010 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 12:22 pm
User avatarHeraldPosts: 1461Location: Zen StudiosJoined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Ah, you said the magic word for me "Gentleman" who remains one of my utmost favourites!

One of the things I enjoy about this game is its ability to throw "curve balls" - in the sense that (outside of folks taking their favourite models) people can actually do quite dynamic things with there Team choices!

Unlike a certain sci-fi game produced by a certain company I used to work for that "forces" army choices if you want to just stand a chance against certain armies - I'm pointing my finger at YOU Star Marines and Space Elves (names changed to save embarrasment for those who still play these LMAO).



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 4:40 pm
User avatarHeroPosts: 263Location: Atlanta, GAJoined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:59 pm
Looks like a cool model, but I'm a bit wary of the idea that a significant percentage of teams are unable to target him at all in human form.


leonmallett wrote:
So a Hero team facing Efreet (eventually; it looks like he is way down the schedule...) may want to think seriously about having some Hero/Villains to target Malcolm (here I would think about Guerilla, Vector or any character with decent threat range).


Here's the problem, you have no way of knowing that you are facing Efreet because both players build their teams at the same time. This is necessary for two reasons:

1. Prevents building a team specifically to counter an enemy team

2. Prevents endless loops: Oh, you're taking X? I'll take Y. Aha, if you're taking Y then I'll take Z instead. No, no, I will not take Y after all then, I'll go back to taking X. etc....


Using Agendas might allow you to win without attacking Efreet, but Agendas are listed as optional so you can't count on that. You might have some tricky ability that lets you hurt a model without specifically targeting it, but these are rather uncommon.

So yeah, bottom line is that I'm a bit suspicious of any model that has a good chance to be immune to nearly all forms of attack from an entire enemy army. I don't like the idea that I need to include a strong combat Hero/Villain in every list just in case I meet Efreet, especially since this specifically runs counter to using themed teams which a lot of players will want to do.

Not being able to hurt an enemy model at all can easily lead to an unfun game for one or both players (the Efreet player might feel bad about using him). Maybe being in human form will carry enough negatives that you won't want to do it often? Maybe the restriction is lifted for the rest of the game as soon as he transforms or makes any sort of attack? I hope so.


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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 5:01 pm
User avatarHeraldPosts: 1461Location: Zen StudiosJoined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:43 pm
It depends on how "tough" Efreet is in his monstrous form (have we seen cards yet) because there is no way you are going to keep him "untransformed" if Efreet is a "beast" on the table.

I've always perferred "Blind" Army building personally, taking what you think makes a good strong all around force.



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 5:44 pm
User avatarHeroPosts: 263Location: Atlanta, GAJoined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:59 pm
No card yet, at least that I've seen.

His human form should be useful too. As Efreet, he's probably more of a melee beatstick. In human/sorcerer form he may be a ranged or support character? We'll have to see. I doubt his human form would be terrible though or else why bother being able to transform? You could just release the Efreet form and be done with it.


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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 5:56 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
dboeren wrote:
Looks like a cool model, but I'm a bit wary of the idea that a significant percentage of teams are unable to target him at all in human form.


leonmallett wrote:
So a Hero team facing Efreet (eventually; it looks like he is way down the schedule...) may want to think seriously about having some Hero/Villains to target Malcolm (here I would think about Guerilla, Vector or any character with decent threat range).


Here's the problem, you have no way of knowing that you are facing Efreet because both players build their teams at the same time. This is necessary for two reasons:

1. Prevents building a team specifically to counter an enemy team

2. Prevents endless loops: Oh, you're taking X? I'll take Y. Aha, if you're taking Y then I'll take Z instead. No, no, I will not take Y after all then, I'll go back to taking X. etc....


Using Agendas might allow you to win without attacking Efreet, but Agendas are listed as optional so you can't count on that. You might have some tricky ability that lets you hurt a model without specifically targeting it, but these are rather uncommon.

So yeah, bottom line is that I'm a bit suspicious of any model that has a good chance to be immune to nearly all forms of attack from an entire enemy army. I don't like the idea that I need to include a strong combat Hero/Villain in every list just in case I meet Efreet, especially since this specifically runs counter to using themed teams which a lot of players will want to do.

Not being able to hurt an enemy model at all can easily lead to an unfun game for one or both players (the Efreet player might feel bad about using him). Maybe being in human form will carry enough negatives that you won't want to do it often? Maybe the restriction is lifted for the rest of the game as soon as he transforms or makes any sort of attack? I hope so.


I 'suspect' that the Malcolm form will be quite limited; in other words a Villain player keeping the model alive by staying as Malcolm will not be using Efreet to his maximum ability. And it may be that the circumstances for Shapechange may be tightly controlled or restricted.

As for preparing - Gentleman Sniper will take care of business no matter who he is fielded with. :)

And of course, not all games are Hero vs. Villain....



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:01 pm
User avatarHeraldPosts: 1461Location: Zen StudiosJoined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:43 pm
STOP BRINGING UP THE GENTLEMAN LOL!

As a "shooty" support character, he's the best all rounder!



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:18 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 2139Location: Maine U.S.A.Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:52 am
Guys don't worry it's a VERY limited restriction. After all Malcolm is just a harmless teenager, right up until he becomes the monstrous Efreet. Once that happens it's all over. Plus standard rules of engagement apply, once someone has attacked you it's OK to fight back.

My rules call would be that Hero/Villains would not be able to target Malcolm. They are Villain but ALSO Heroes. That being said because Heroes can't target Malcolm neither can they. They are both, they will always have more penalties not less. BUT if you hire Gentleman with his Greed skill, well Gentleman is still a Villain so he's fine with taking a shot at the kid.



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:30 pm
User avatarHeraldPosts: 1461Location: Zen StudiosJoined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:43 pm
Beermonkey wrote:
My rules call would be that Hero/Villains would not be able to target Malcolm. They are Villain but ALSO Heroes. That being said because Heroes can't target Malcolm neither can they. They are both, they will always have more penalties not less.


Thats what I thought, but I wasn't entirely sure.

Beermonkey wrote:
BUT if you hire Gentleman with his Greed skill, well Gentleman is still a Villain so he's fine with taking a shot at the kid.


Good to know ;) not that I am biased or anything . . . . .



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:33 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Beermonkey wrote:
Guys don't worry it's a VERY limited restriction. After all Malcolm is just a harmless teenager, right up until he becomes the monstrous Efreet. Once that happens it's all over. Plus standard rules of engagement apply, once someone has attacked you it's OK to fight back.

My rules call would be that Hero/Villains would not be able to target Malcolm. They are Villain but ALSO Heroes. That being said because Heroes can't target Malcolm neither can they. They are both, they will always have more penalties not less. BUT if you hire Gentleman with his Greed skill, well Gentleman is still a Villain so he's fine with taking a shot at the kid.


It will depend on how it is written - I doubt a restriction will specific conitions for both Heroes and Villains; they are usually one or the other are they not? Time will tell of course. Especially as he has slipped so far down the release schedule.



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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 6:39 pm
User avatarHeraldPosts: 1461Location: Zen StudiosJoined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:43 pm
My take it it is a simple one, they have a "Hero" symbol on the Card - therefore Hero restrictions should apply.



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