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<  Villain Tactics  ~  TANGENT LVL 2 SCIENCE

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:21 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 1536Location: SE KansasJoined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:14 am
BeardedDragon wrote:
To me, she seems to be even more powerful under the new rules set (new way trump traits work/new way power up works). In the games we've played her in around here with the new rules set, she seems to be overpowered.


We'll keep an eye on it in the playtest team... If there is an wide need to make adjustments, it shouldn't be hard.

What issues did you have specifically? Any buffs from other Supremes, what was your team make-up, etc?



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:01 pm
User avatarHeroPosts: 263Location: Atlanta, GAJoined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:59 pm
I posted this in another thread the other day:

dboeren wrote:
Zee wrote:
Tangent is my go to gal. She was doing crazy amounts of damage [thanks to calling the right number on Weak Spot], and inflicted Super Damage with her shot at least once per game.


I hate to say, but Tangent's "Weak Spot" action seems broken under the new rules. The change to trumps gives her a much higher chance of pulling off huge damage, more damage than any other model I can think of could aspire to. If she hits her mark calling 6 (which is her best odds at 11/36 not counting Lucky), the damage STARTS at 16, before adding Tangent Points and Power Ups. An average roll by a defender with 4 agility would yield 8.5 damage and likely more - there's little reason not to at least spend for a few extra damage on top of it. You just shouldn't be able to nearly one-shot a level two Supreme 1-2 times per game on a low-cost ability. She also benefits a fair bit from the new Precision Trump perk, there is no longer a way to try to weaken her ability by being in melee.

She's going to need an errata anyway because her Analysis ability specifically refers to the old Power Up mechanics which have changed, I think as long as this is being done the team needs to take a serious look at toning down Weak Spot.


Zee, BeardedDragon, and myself are all in the same local group.


The team has generally been:
Supreme Zed
Tangent
Sanguine (level 2 if an 8 pointer, level 1 if a 6 pointer)
Mourn
Sister Bedlam (if an 8 pointer)

Buffs: Occasionally Horror on the target from Sanguine, but honestly none seems necessary. She hits so hard by herself that you don't need it.

The basic issue is described above. If she matches her number (calling 6 there is an 11/36 chance of doing so not counting Lucky) she will do enough damage to one shot a typical Level 1 Supreme and take a Level 2 Supreme to very low health so that they are easily finished off. In a typical game she'll do this at least once, often twice.

Zee hasn't even been running her at capacity yet. He's been calling 5's which have only 9/36 rather than 11/36 chance of success, presumably he hasn't gotten around to actually doing the math yet. She gets worse.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:42 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 2139Location: Maine U.S.A.Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:52 am
Welcome to the Forum BeardedDragon (great name BTW I have two of them!).

Tangent is a very powerful and with the new rules she does tend to hit a little harder. Thing to remeber is she's kind of a glass cannon. If you can hit her she WILL drop. Fast too! She tends to have problems against the A.R.C., let's face it an entire team with :AGL trumps is hard to shoot! Keep in mind you CAN Power Up defensive Traits now. So when she Trumps and Powers Up well an :AGL Trump Supreme can Power Up and Trump as well.

In addition she has fairly low Damage for a level two. I'm not saying she isn't a tough customer. She can be taken down. Also with the new Plot and Agenda Rules damage isn't everything. You can get around her easily with the right team or just dodge her long enough to get close. Heck I've taken to bringing some high :DEF BOOM Minions on large bases as mobile shield in many games. They block LOS to my weaker models and allow my high :STR Supremes to get in close to end those pesky shooters. Lots of options. Keep your :MND open to possibilities.



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:23 am
MortalPosts: 34Location: Atlanta, GaJoined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:29 pm
@ Dbo and Bearded:

There are several factors you haven't mentioned in your posts:

1. We are playing basic kill-em-all missions: No missions except fight and die. This allows me to play to my strengths of you having to come to me. This way, Tangent can let you get tied up, and thanks to the Energy Trump, can ignore shooting into/out of combat.

2. Terrain was sparse, or not used optimally: Dbo, both times we played, you set up closer to the open side of the board. If you had come around the cars and trucks, or even behind the building, you would have been able to avoid the brunt of the ranged assault.

3. We are still learning: This is big. The first game, Dbo, you didn't even gate or use your crossbow properly. The second game, you didn't use the Gate ability AND you forgot Crossbow Ulthar dude's Team Power in both games. We are still new, and learning what our models can do. So, keep that in mind. Same with you, Bearded. Dbo, you still needed a lot of reminding on the other rules too, AS DID I. We are still putzing our way through this.

Keep this in mind before thinking that she might need a re-write. I thought about what we talked about on Saturday after our games, and even though I was also of the mindset that she may need some 'tweaking', I think we need to be a more experienced group of players and have more than 10 games between the lot with the new rules.



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:30 am
MortalPosts: 34Location: Atlanta, GaJoined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:29 pm
Quote:
Zee hasn't even been running her at capacity yet. He's been calling 5's which have only 9/36 rather than 11/36 chance of success, presumably he hasn't gotten around to actually doing the math yet. She gets worse.


Never tell me the odds!

But seriously, I don't call 6's because I know my luck.

If I call 5, and I roll a 6, my total [before power ups] is an 11.
If I call 5 and roll a 5, my total is a 15.

On the other hand, if I call a 6 and get that, I get a 16.
If I call a 6 and get a 5, my total is only a 10.

Assume the target is a 4 AG without any penalties, and rolls a 4.

The first way?

I do either 3 or 7 damage.
The second: I either do 8 or 2 damage.

The difference? I'm a bad roller, and I trust getting 5s more than 6s.



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:17 pm
MortalPosts: 3Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:27 pm
Yep, bearded dragons are keen (though my wife dotes on our current one and I don't see her much).

Glad to hear the playtesters are still checking into things. I'm not saying she's broken, just that she's been quite powerful in our (admittedly smallish amount) games.

Speaking of the new Plot and Agenda rules, did I just miss them or are they not in the PDF? I got the CD of them at Gencon when I pre-ordered the book, but I"m not seeing the agendas in there like in the previous rules pdf. It was mentioned that there were a bunch of more pages that are going to be in the final rulebook.


Last edited by BeardedDragon on Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:33 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 2139Location: Maine U.S.A.Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:52 am
No you're not wrong the PDF is lacking the Plots and Agenda rules. Kinda stinks given how crucial they are to playing the game. Won't be long until we've all got a new hard cover to keep us busy though...



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:56 pm
User avatarHeroPosts: 263Location: Atlanta, GAJoined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:59 pm
I just wanted to say that the errata in the new book does indeed knock Tangent's Weak Spot down a notch.

Thanks to the playtest team for taking the time to look into this issue!


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:04 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
dboeren wrote:
I just wanted to say that the errata in the new book does indeed knock Tangent's Weak Spot down a notch.

Thanks to the playtest team for taking the time to look into this issue!


Although not specifically for this reason alone, Weak Spot is brought in line with the new +3/-3 maximum rule (Pulp City Math; p. 18).

And with that rule, Weak Spot can't receive any more buffs from other Actions; it stays at +3.



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:38 pm
User avatarImmortalPosts: 1161Location: Montreal, CanadaJoined: Tue May 12, 2009 4:23 am
Just out of curiosity, I was looking over the table on page 1 with the different Weak Spot results and thinking about the +3/-3 rule.

Strategically, since we can never get greater then +3, does that then mean that the optimal number to call for weak spot is now 3? Roll a 1 or a 2 and you can trump it. Roll 3 and you get the max bonus. Roll higher then 3 and damage will be comparable anyway.

Does that seem logical?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:05 pm
User avatarHeroPosts: 202Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:48 am
Quote:
since we can never get greater then +3


- from one source ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:06 am
MortalPosts: 17Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:04 am
A Single Modifier can bigger than +3, the +3 Rule applies when modifiers start to stack, then you get a max of +3 OR the highest single modifier, whichever is higher.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:50 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 2139Location: Maine U.S.A.Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:52 am
Exactly! So it's still not a bad idea to choose 5 or 6 and get the plus three for nice high total. It was just a little too overpowered before hand.



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:13 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
cardboardvampire wrote:
Just out of curiosity, I was looking over the table on page 1 with the different Weak Spot results and thinking about the +3/-3 rule.

Strategically, since we can never get greater then +3, does that then mean that the optimal number to call for weak spot is now 3? Roll a 1 or a 2 and you can trump it. Roll 3 and you get the max bonus. Roll higher then 3 and damage will be comparable anyway.

Does that seem logical?


The Weak Spot bonus is a flat +3 (subject to the +3/-3 limit when stacked), regardless of what the roll is. Therefore the optimum strategy is unaffected. :)



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:21 pm
User avatarImmortalPosts: 1161Location: Montreal, CanadaJoined: Tue May 12, 2009 4:23 am
Thanks guys! I think I get it now. As much as I love the new rules, there's still a curve as I try to absorb them all...


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