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<  Law & Order in Pulp City  ~  BOOM - Build Our Own Minions Beta Test Rules

PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:14 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 2139Location: Maine U.S.A.Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:52 am
I've been wanting to use them as Father Oak's Tree Huggers myself. Just tie die them up a little and shaggy works great at least.



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:27 am
User avatarHeroPosts: 257Location: Kensington, MD, USAJoined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:34 pm
leonmallett wrote:
Has there been any further thought on opening up solo? That is my really only significant concern, that it is restricted as it is. Maybe allow L2 Blasters and Supports to take it - I don't know, but it seems an arbitrary restriction to keep it Brawler only.


Gotta second this. Solo is too good an advantage to limit just to brawlers.



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:05 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 2139Location: Maine U.S.A.Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:52 am
The original intention was to allow for Ninja minions to opperate independently of orders. Plus with a Brawlers innate ability to go tearing off after a target it kind of made sense to me. But if people agree I don't see a reason to not offer it up as a universal upgrade option. Right now I'm trying to lower the number of points a lvl 2 Minion gets and put ability caps on minions. In addition I'm trying to reduce to costs of all actions to just 1 AP per CARD of minions. The point being that minions are WEAK but they are CHEAP to use. Right now this isn't the case.

In the BOOM rules as written UNDERSTREGTH is an advantage as you build a more powerful minion that requires LESS AP to use every round. That is not what minions should be. Heck I've been sending angry email to Morf from about the time I joined the forums about how minions are too damn expensive to accually be used. So that's what I'm trying to work on now. Just an update.



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:02 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Good to har a mini update my friend.

Beermonkey wrote:
The original intention was to allow for Ninja minions to opperate independently of orders. Plus with a Brawlers innate ability to go tearing off after a target it kind of made sense to me. But if people agree I don't see a reason to not offer it up as a universal upgrade option.


I can't see any major problem against it, except creating one-shot attacks via Minion, which Brawlers can do by other means anyway, so it creates an opened up opportunity for all 3 classes to be built as intended by the player.

Quote:
Right now I'm trying to lower the number of points a lvl 2 Minion gets and put ability caps on minions.


I think Trait caps are a good thing; maybe 4 for L1 and 5 for L2? that is just off the top of my head, but the point is it may limit min-maxing.

Quote:
In addition I'm trying to reduce to costs of all actions to just 1 AP per CARD of minions. The point being that minions are WEAK but they are CHEAP to use. Right now this isn't the case.


The other bonus in doing this is that it is more intuitive for game-play to take a consistnet approach, so more speedy, therefore a good thing. I think your idea here to standardise AP cost to 1 per card per action is a very good one and something I fully support.

Quote:
In the BOOM rules as written UNDERSTREGTH is an advantage as you build a more powerful minion that requires LESS AP to use every round. That is not what minions should be.


The rules as written lend themselves to Under Strength Solo Brawlers especially, so the flattened AP cost makes sense. I think Survival cost also needs to be looked at - it is very cheap to add to a single (Under Strength) L2 model, but then that comes back to the combination of ablities selected. What about a singular cost fo Survival, but basing the numebr of extra damage gained as an inverse proportion of the relative number of Minions on the card: maybe +3 damage for 1 Minion on a card, +2 for 2 Minions and +1 for 3 Minions? This would mean the cost is fixed rather than relative to Minions. Just an idea.

Quote:
Heck I've been sending angry email to Morf from about the time I joined the forums about how minions are too damn expensive to accually be used. So that's what I'm trying to work on now. Just an update.


It comes down to expectations in some ways also. Look at the Zombie Wolf - far superior to BOOM level 1's which is probably as it should be, but pretty simple to use when compared to other non-exclusive Minions since its function is very clear. Other Minions have seemed static on the table at times simply because the AP costs are so high plus the common need for Command. So I think resolving the AP cost could be part of the solution.

However if Minions become too useful (say for having lowered and simplified AP costs) they may become unbalanced as a result. Which makes me think that maybe limiting resources may be something to think about - which of course makes certain skills like Resourceful potentially more potent, so the balance is pretty finely tuned. Long term though, I have to agree with simplifying the AP costs as you have suggested and seeing how that works.



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:12 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 2139Location: Maine U.S.A.Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:52 am
Well my thoughts on the matter of attribute caps are 3 for Lvl 1's, and 4 for Lvl 2's. I want minions to stay minions. They are mooks who shouldn't be much of a threat to a supreme. However by virture of sheer numbers they can plink away at a supremes damage bar slowly weakening them. Read your comics again this is how minions work in the comics, that's how they should work here. So that's what I'm trying to emulate now.



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:00 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Beermonkey wrote:
Well my thoughts on the matter of attribute caps are 3 for Lvl 1's, and 4 for Lvl 2's. I want minions to stay minions. They are mooks who shouldn't be much of a threat to a supreme. However by virture of sheer numbers they can plink away at a supremes damage bar slowly weakening them. Read your comics again this is how minions work in the comics, that's how they should work here. So that's what I'm trying to emulate now.


Placing the caps at 3 and 4 pretty much pushes Pack Tactics and Target Acquired as must haves in some ways, doesn't it? I suggest that simply due to the relative caps versus the typical range of Supreme :DEF and :AGL , let alone the use of trump re-rolls by Supremes, means that more often than not Minions may do little.

It is just my view but I think L1 capped at 3 and L2 capped at 4 is a mite too low.

As for comic book Minions, well they run a gamut from criminal lowlives, to trained paramilitaries (AIM, Hydra, HIVE etc), to various robots and cyborg types, to Shadow demons that were quite a threat (courtesy of the Anti-Monitor in CoIE), Apokalyptian Parademons, to zombies and so on. Not all Minions are alike in ability and/or capability.



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:40 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 2139Location: Maine U.S.A.Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:52 am
Exactly. But the caps keep most minions from being less powerful than supremes. Otherwise it was very easy to build a single large based minion who was far more powerful than any level 1 supreme in the game. That was not the point. The point is to spend a couple of AP and make enemy supremes defend against 2 maybe three low level attacks, plus bog them down while they battle through disposable enemies. That's the roll I want minions for. They should NEVER rival a Supreme for power or combat ability.



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:50 pm
User avatarHeraldPosts: 725Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:25 pm
Beermonkey wrote:
Exactly. But the caps keep most minions from being less powerful than supremes. Otherwise it was very easy to build a single large based minion who was far more powerful than any level 1 supreme in the game. That was not the point. The point is to spend a couple of AP and make enemy supremes defend against 2 maybe three low level attacks, plus bog them down while they battle through disposable enemies. That's the roll I want minions for. They should NEVER rival a Supreme for power or combat ability.


Well, when you say minion, I hear "expendable goons", you know, the kind of guy with a mustache and the look of the guy who knows he's gonna get killed first, the average gang member/commie soldier/red shirt/orc sentinel/female sidekick... in all these brainless action movies...



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:26 pm
User avatarImmortalPosts: 1161Location: Montreal, CanadaJoined: Tue May 12, 2009 4:23 am
Just to add another 2 cents here...

I think level caps are good things, but I too think 3 for a level 1 and 4 for a level 2 may be too low.

Yes, a horde of goons is a part of the superhero genre, but what about the elite henchman? What about the junior hero sidekicks who aren't quite supremes, but should still pack a punch?

If the idea of keeping the caps low is so that they're never better then a level 1 supreme, then that's a reasonable argument, but a combat built level 2 minion, even if *some* of their stats are better, is still inferior due to inflexibility. Even a level 1 supreme will have a variety of powers, while a combat boosted minion will still likely only have 1.

So, I definitely support the idea of allowing the creation of better minions (a cap of 4 for level 1s and 5 for level 2s), but a compromise between the two might exist as well.

What about setting the cap at 3 and 4, as was sugested, but add a secial power that can be bought for 2 points which raises one stat above the maxiumum? This means that if you really want your :ENG 5 shooter, you can have it, but you have to decide if that last :ENG point is really worth spending 2 build points.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:29 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
cardboardvampire wrote:
Just to add another 2 cents here...

I think level caps are good things, but I too think 3 for a level 1 and 4 for a level 2 may be too low.

Yes, a horde of goons is a part of the superhero genre, but what about the elite henchman? What about the junior hero sidekicks who aren't quite supremes, but should still pack a punch?

If the idea of keeping the caps low is so that they're never better then a level 1 supreme, then that's a reasonable argument, but a combat built level 2 minion, even if *some* of their stats are better, is still inferior due to inflexibility. Even a level 1 supreme will have a variety of powers, while a combat boosted minion will still likely only have 1.

So, I definitely support the idea of allowing the creation of better minions (a cap of 4 for level 1s and 5 for level 2s), but a compromise between the two might exist as well.

What about setting the cap at 3 and 4, as was sugested, but add a secial power that can be bought for 2 points which raises one stat above the maxiumum? This means that if you really want your :ENG 5 shooter, you can have it, but you have to decide if that last :ENG point is really worth spending 2 build points.


I like this idea - neat and elegant. It doesn't even require any kind of special ability. All that is needed is to double the cost of any trait points above the cap, and build that into basic creation. 8)

Excellent suggestion there, cardboardvampire. :MND



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:07 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 2139Location: Maine U.S.A.Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:52 am
Yeah that's not a bad idea really. Only viable for level 2 minions though. As the Level 1's only have 3 MPP anyway. Also expect Level 2 minions to have only 4 MPP to start with, they already get a huge bump with the extra damage boxes. Need to keep these guysin line with the level 1's.


Before you all start saying that I'm trying to "Nerf" minions I want to address a couple of concerns of mine.

1) Minions are a Resource. They are an added advantage a team has. They should never be game breaking or equal or exceed a Supreme in power or usefulness. This is important. With the current rules you can easily build a blaster with 8 inch range and power 5 or 6 blast. That's as good or better that a lot of level 2 shooters. Add to this a number of supremes that can boost minion abilities off the top of my head: Gentleman, Xenobi, Mysterious Man, Guerilla. That's too much power for a resource to have. In one game I managed to have 2 brawlers charge doing dice +12 on the opposed roll. THAT"S TOO MUCH!!

2) By reducing the power of the minions but making them cheaper to use they will actually see more use/be more useful. This is a theory. I think that in a game like Pulp, that is essentially a resource management game, minions are a poor place to spend resources. I'm hoping that by reducing the cost of using minions people will be more liable to spend 2 AP to have a card full of minions move/attack every round. It's a good investment in AP. With the current rules it would cost 3 AP to do a move shoot with 2 minions, 4 AP for 3 minions. That's just to pricey to use. So why bother. I'm hoping that cheap to use but less powerful minions will be more game friendly than not.

3) These are my opinion and experienced based on my games. I play 2 to 4 games everyweek. That's a lot but not a many games as could be played. That being said I need some hard data. If you are using the BOOM rules tell me what works and what doesn't and why! PLEASE! Give me feed back, try and break the system, min/max and exploit the thing. Try my new suggestions with lower level caps but 1 AP for everything a CARD does. Tell me if this is good or bad. I need YOUR help to make these rules work.

4) NEW RULES I Want to Test

-Attribute Caps 3 for Lvl 1, 4 for Lvl 2.

-AP COST: All minion universal or exclusive actions cost 1 AP per CARD of Minions up to 3 models. Plus 1 AP per additional 3 models or part thereof. (this is important for infectious models and such, Necro G.I.'s and Tree Huggers)

-Level 2 Minions ONLY recieve 4 MPP

-Support Minions can choose for free from this list.
Choose One Upgrade:
? Gain an additional MPP
? Blitzer 1
? Blend 2
? Wall Crawler
? Levitate
? Deflect 1


That's it try it out let me know.



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:11 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Beermonkey wrote:
...4) NEW RULES I Want to Test

-Attribute Caps 3 for Lvl 1, 4 for Lvl 2.

-AP COST: All minion universal or exclusive actions cost 1 AP per CARD of Minions up to 3 models. Plus 1 AP per additional 3 models or part thereof. (this is important for infectious models and such, Necro G.I.'s and Tree Huggers)

-Level 2 Minions ONLY recieve 4 MPP

-Support Minions can choose for free from this list.
Choose One Upgrade:
? Gain an additional MPP
? Blitzer 1
? Blend 2
? Wall Crawler
? Levitate
? Deflect 1


That's it try it out let me know.


Do you want these proposed changes to be considered with or without Solo as a generic option (rather than being Brawler-specific)?



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:18 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 2139Location: Maine U.S.A.Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:52 am
Go ahead and use Solo. See how it works.



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:32 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Gotcha.



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:13 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Tried out the use of AP 1 cost for Minion actions today in a quick afternoon game (well a couple of hours and a lot of minis), and found it smoother. It was with existing generic Minions (not BOOM ones), it worked well I thought, bringing the Minions more fully into the game, without them being overwhelming.



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