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<  Law & Order in Pulp City  ~  Damage vs Success

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:04 am
HeroPosts: 268Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 1:11 am
When an action refers to an opposed roll being "successful" is this intergangable with it causing "damage" or does it have a different meaning? If so, what does it mean? This is important for any additional effects that may occur on top of damage. For instance, Dr Mercury's Spike Hand says you add an additional 2 points of damage to a successful strike, and Apebots Throw Stuff let's him Throw the target after a successful strike. So in the case that the opposed roll is higher than the targets roll but for some reason the damage is negated/transferred by things like invincible/Stoner Hawk's team power etc, do you then discount the additional effects?

This opens up a kettle of fish really, cause when it comes to Dr Mercury striking Taurus for example, Dr Mercury beats Taurus opposed roll by 2, in what order do you apply invincible and +2 damage? If Taurus discounts first then the strike is unsuccessful (I'm assuming) so the +2 damage do not happen. If dr merc adds the +2 first because it's successful then the Taurus cops 2 damage.

We've discussed it and thought it would be the simplest and cleanest to count success as causing damage after all modifiers are involved, then resolve any additional effects (so Taurus would get no damage in the example above), what do you guys reckon?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:50 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
baskinders wrote:
When an action refers to an opposed roll being "successful" is this intergangable with it causing "damage" or does it have a different meaning? If so, what does it mean? This is important for any additional effects that may occur on top of damage. For instance, Dr Mercury's Spike Hand says you add an additional 2 points of damage to a successful strike, and Apebots Throw Stuff let's him Throw the target after a successful strike. So in the case that the opposed roll is higher than the targets roll but for some reason the damage is negated/transferred by things like invincible/Stoner Hawk's team power etc, do you then discount the additional effects?


Success is by winning the Opposed Roll.

Invincible does not affect the Opposed Roll, only the Damage taken (think of it as 2 steps; 1. Opposed Roll - Success or Failure, 2. apply result of a success (Damage) if achieved.

Quote:
This opens up a kettle of fish really, cause when it comes to Dr Mercury striking Taurus for example, Dr Mercury beats Taurus opposed roll by 2, in what order do you apply invincible and +2 damage? If Taurus discounts first then the strike is unsuccessful (I'm assuming) so the +2 damage do not happen. If dr merc adds the +2 first because it's successful then the Taurus cops 2 damage.


Since the Opposed Roll determines success/failure, you immediately add Damage then.

Invincible is applied then (after the +2 Damage added in) to total Damage not Opposed Roll.

Quote:
We've discussed it and thought it would be the simplest and cleanest to count success as causing damage after all modifiers are involved, then resolve any additional effects (so Taurus would get no damage in the example above), what do you guys reckon?



Hope this helps.



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:44 am
HeroPosts: 268Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 1:11 am
So in the case of Apebots with Throw Stuff striking a model and winning the opposed roll by 1, but target model transfers the damage to Stoner Hawk who is 2 inches away, Apebot still counts as successful and can throw the original target?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:27 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
baskinders wrote:
So in the case of Apebots with Throw Stuff striking a model and winning the opposed roll by 1, but target model transfers the damage to Stoner Hawk who is 2 inches away, Apebot still counts as successful and can throw the original target?


Yes, since the effect is predicated on success, not Damage. :)

Stoner reduces the Damage, but the Throw still occurs.



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:14 am
HeroPosts: 268Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 1:11 am
Coolio. So in the above example with Dr merc Taurus would suffer the additional 2 damage, however if it was guerilla shooting dakka dakka then the additional 2 damage would not occur because you only get the 2 additional damage if you cause 1 damage? Just makes dr Mercury's power much better if that's the intention?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:50 am
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
baskinders wrote:
Coolio. So in the above example with Dr merc Taurus would suffer the additional 2 damage, however if it was guerilla shooting dakka dakka then the additional 2 damage would not occur because you only get the 2 additional damage if you cause 1 damage? Just makes dr Mercury's power much better if that's the intention?


Causing 1 Damage and gaining extra Damage with Guerrilla would be worked out before invincible is applied. So If he wins the roll by 1, inflicting 1 Damage, he adds +2 Damage also.

Invincible is applied after determining what the Damage will be.



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:54 am
HeroPosts: 268Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 1:11 am
Sweet, so for my clarity, if I lay it out like this have I got it right? To make a combat action you:

1. Make opposed roll and determine if it's "successful" (the attacker beats or wins a draw vs the defender).

2. Add any attacking damage bonuses to the amount the opposed roll is won by for abilities that are always on, need "success" or need to cause "damage" to trigger.

3. Subtract or transfer any damage from the step 2 for any defensive powers.

4. Apply any "non-damage modifying" effects (knock down/super damage/action specific) to the target for any abilities that are always on or need "success" to trigger, regardless of the amount of damage inflicted or transferred.

5. If any damage has been taken by the target, mark it on the Supreme's card and apply any "non-damage modifying" effects that need to cause "damage" to trigger (meaning that transferred damage negates these effects)

Just looking for a process we can apply consistently :)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:27 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 1536Location: SE KansasJoined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:14 am
baskinders wrote:
Sweet, so for my clarity, if I lay it out like this have I got it right? To make a combat action you:

1. Make opposed roll and determine if it's "successful" (the attacker beats or wins a draw vs the defender).

2. Add any attacking damage bonuses to the amount the opposed roll is won by for abilities that are always on, need "success" or need to cause "damage" to trigger.

3. Subtract or transfer any damage from the step 2 for any defensive powers.

4. Apply any "non-damage modifying" effects (knock down/super damage/action specific) to the target for any abilities that are always on or need "success" to trigger, regardless of the amount of damage inflicted or transferred.

5. If any damage has been taken by the target, mark it on the Supreme's card and apply any "non-damage modifying" effects that need to cause "damage" to trigger (meaning that transferred damage negates these effects)

Just looking for a process we can apply consistently :)


lol. Looks good...but I'd have to go through the abilities to see if everything is consistent.

I'd hate to lay out a Warmachine/Hordes step-by-step with several steps, but doing what you've done will help clarify things as needed.



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:20 am
HeroPosts: 268Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 1:11 am
varagon wrote:
baskinders wrote:
Sweet, so for my clarity, if I lay it out like this have I got it right? To make a combat action you:

1. Make opposed roll and determine if it's "successful" (the attacker beats or wins a draw vs the defender).

2. Add any attacking damage bonuses to the amount the opposed roll is won by for abilities that are always on, need "success" or need to cause "damage" to trigger.

3. Subtract or transfer any damage from the step 2 for any defensive powers.

4. Apply any "non-damage modifying" effects (knock down/super damage/action specific) to the target for any abilities that are always on or need "success" to trigger, regardless of the amount of damage inflicted or transferred.

5. If any damage has been taken by the target, mark it on the Supreme's card and apply any "non-damage modifying" effects that need to cause "damage" to trigger (meaning that transferred damage negates these effects)

Just looking for a process we can apply consistently :)


lol. Looks good...but I'd have to go through the abilities to see if everything is consistent.

I'd hate to lay out a Warmachine/Hordes step-by-step with several steps, but doing what you've done will help clarify things as needed.


Cheers mate. I don't play Warmachine/Hordes so not sure how they lay things out, but this type of thing inevitably needs to be done for any game system when it grows to have the number of minis that Pulp has got. The interaction of so so so many different rules and effects means that unless you have a process to follow you have no idea what to do. I know the guiding principle you guys use is "make if comic book and fun", which is awesome and why I love the game, but it needs to be balanced with clarity so that not knowing how stuff works, or even worse having a different idea on how it works to your mate you're playing with, doesn't get in the way of smashing dudes with cars! :).

I've got a couple of examples of the above process me and Feldstorm were discussing:

Ace of Wraiths using King of Torment and armed with Hellstrom vs Virus within Apebot's Defend the Master Aura.

1.Opposed roll is Ace 7 vs Virus 5: action now counts as "successful"
2.Ace modifies his damage to 1 due to King of Torment (success trigger damage modifying effect) and then adds 1 to the damage due to Hellstrom (damage trigger damage modifying effect). Damage is currently 2.
3.Virus transfers all damage to Apebot.
4.Apply the King of Torment effect "Target… has to pay double the cost of all actions…" (success trigger non-damage modifying effect) to Virus.
5.Mark Apebot's damage (that's just written in there for completeness, you can mark the card at point 3 or whenever the hell you want! :)) and that's it cause there's no "damage trigger non-damage modifying effects.

Second example, replace Ace with Stoner Hawk tossing Stone Tomahawk vs Virus within Apebot's Defend the Master Aura again.

1.Opposed roll is Hawk 9 vs Virus 8: action now counts as "successful"
2.Hawk has no offensive damage modifiers.
3.Virus transfers all damage to Apebot.
4.There are no "always on" or "success trigger" non-damage modifying effects.
5.Mark Apebot's damage and then discount the Stone Tomahawk effect of Knock Down because it's a "damage trigger non-damage modifying effect" but no damage has been done to the target Virus.

Is that how you'd play those?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:31 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Ace vs. Apebot & Virus example: yes. :)

Now Stoner Tomahawk is a specific case. Note that it says "Damaged models", not "Damaged targets". Therefore by the wording it does not matter who the 'target' is, it matters which model suffers the Damage.

Therefore the Knocked Down Effect still occurs unless the "Damaged model" has a mitigating ability such as the Immovable Skill; it is just that in this example Apebot is the Damaged model and would crash to the floor.

So Defend the Master may not always be the best option... :wink:



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:23 pm
HeroPosts: 268Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 1:11 am
pulpcitizen wrote:
Ace vs. Apebot & Virus example: yes. :)

Now Stoner Tomahawk is a specific case. Note that it says "Damaged models", not "Damaged targets". Therefore by the wording it does not matter who the 'target' is, it matters which model suffers the Damage.

Therefore the Knocked Down Effect still occurs unless the "Damaged model" has a mitigating ability such as the Immovable Skill; it is just that in this example Apebot is the Damaged model and would crash to the floor.

So Defend the Master may not always be the best option... :wink:


Thanks heaps PC, all makes sense.

I'd assume in that case if it was the Brain Bros (Gemini twins) that were the target and they shared the damage then they'd both be affected by effects that are triggered by damaging the "model". Poor little fellas... :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:19 pm
User avatarGuardian of PulpPosts: 4526Location: House of Jade LanternsJoined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:16 am
Exactly - there are times in which to consider those Damage transfer options. In the case of Gemini's, it may be sometimes worthwhile to perhaps shift all or nothing rather than partial Damage.



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